Will any glue stick bike plastics?

Tempature control is much less critical than metal welding, but
spreading out the heat, will lead to the plastic sagging on a wider
distance to the line of weld. It is very fiddly, but a heat dissapator,
similar to that used on metal welding can be made from tin foil stuck
at a distance to the weld line. Even so, a nozzle has to be used, as
the spread from the standard tube is far too wide. A decent result can
be had from a heat gun with a few settings. The electronic variable
type is not essential. Heat of the weld, can be controlled using speed
of travel as with any welding.
Maybe the best advice would be to give it a try on scrap panel first,
using ABB rods, which are fairly cheap on the internet.



--

 

And that was my worry Joe.

Because I'm still not quite sure about exactly what one of the
professional plastic welders does I'm having difficulty comprehending
what sort of width a weld would be? Like I know how wide and what I
could solder with say a fine tipped 50W iron or weld with 100A on my
stick welder.

Ok, well the best I can manager here atm is a two setting one, yer
basic paint stripper.

The best I can forsee with my current heat gun and its smallest nozzle
(which is about 25mm diameter) is a heap of melted plastic ..:-(

So are all bike panels compatible with ABB Joe or do you just happen
to know Honda's use such?

All the best ..

T i m

 

A Sealey gun will do fine IF you have the welding nozzle. Without it, too
much of the surrounding plastic gets hot and then you're distorting it and
having to deal with an out of shape panel and fairing panels are BIG, so
they warp with little provocation.

You also need the correct filler road, so check which plastic you're
welding.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

Ok, and what I imagined might happen.

So, I note the Sealey Hot Air Gun kit (HS102K) comes with a suitable
reducing and rod feed nozzles but 'ABS' rods? I believe it was Joe
who suggested I might need ABB rods (unless that was a typo?) but I
guess because determining what type of (the many) plastics it could be
makes using a section from the existing panel more reliable (till you
get to know yer plastics etc)?

I didn't get round to doing anything on it yesterday (I was hoping to
test the soldering iron method) and wonder how Lozzo got on with his?

All the best ..

T i m

 

T i m wrote:

I will be playing with hot air guns this afternoon.

 

ABS is a type of plastic (you may know that already), and it needs ABS rods
to effect a proper weld. The type of plastic a fairing is made of is usually
moulded into the fairing (inside) somewhere for just this reason.

Check the inside of the pastics you intend fixing, it should say "ABS" or
"ABB", or even "Expanded Polysytrene", then get the appropriate rods. And
watch out for burnt fingers when you get started.

Lozzo would've got on well, coz the soldering iron tacking method is the
best. Me and Loz differ in the next bit though (the actual welding itself)
as I DO make a "V" shape at the joint, to give the rod an area to flow into,
but it's a "method" thing and we all have our own.




--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

There's always a vital bit missing. ALWAYS


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

Thin ally generally just flops or bursts into flame at anything above 600
degs. Plastic "flops" a lot sooner, but the heat still needs to be directed
right at the job. The speed of the passage of the gun is as important as the
heat coming out of it and a rod guide/feed tube is a necessity (if you want
an easier life).

You need to get the original plastic molten and at the same time you need
the rod to be molten. That way the rod flows into the joint and the result
is a neat "line", but one made up wholly of plastic, not a mix of plastic
and air pockets.

It's not a bad idea to REALLY scuff up the inside of the panel and add a
layer of either glass cloth, or carbon fibre cloth too. Obviously with a
dribble or two of resin (fibreglass resin is better than polyester resin for
fairings)

This tends to spread the fixing rather than have it concentrated in the
joint.

Exactly that. Cloth rather than mat though, but another thing I've used very
succespfully is a product aimed at the building/platerering trade. It's
"sticky backed fibreglass cloth on a roll". It's designed to go across
plasterboard joints just pror to skimming with the plaster, costs pennies
and is available in various widths,. Pull some off the roll and it sticks to
the plastic panels with ease and it also accomodated compound curves. Dollop
resin on after it's applied and Bob's shagging your Mam's sister again.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

That's me fucking ginged then.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

But you've always been modest, I hear.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

Yeah, I guess my question was really 'why ABS' (rather than any other
type etc)?

Luckily I was able to pop into my local bike shop today and not only
do they have said Sealey plastic welding kit (and happy to lend it to
me should I need) but he also showed me it in action on a bit of scrap
fairing and the '> A B S < marking inside this particular panel.

He did add it may be a good idea to support the plastic underneath if
at all possible (as there seems to be a pretty fine line between good
penetration weld and the nozzle through the plastic)?

;-)

The bit I'm still uneasy about the heat thing, preferring something
chemical (and predictable) to the 'you get one shot at it' thing with
the welder (with my current lack of experience of such things etc).

My thoughts are (and they may be way off) that any 'join' isn't going
to be quite as strong as the original material so some reinforcement
may be a good thing in any case to prevent it failing in the same

Hmm.

Ok, here's my idea then, based on some of the other solutions given so
far ...

With the joint currently securely re-made with good superglue (to hold
everything in-line and in- place) clean the paint off the inside maybe
3" either side of the break and generally roughen up the surface.

Drill through the prepared panel area with several evenly spaced (say)
6 mm diameter holes and countersink them to the thickness of the
plastic from the other side. Cover the holes on the outside with tape.

Apply fiberglass resin to the inside prepared area (especially into
the holes) and a single layer of woven mat over the entire area, allow
to go green.

Lay some suitable strips of ally / wood / plastic over the break (at
90 degrees to and slightly shorter than the prepared area) and glass
over with at least one layer of woven mat (the stiffness being from
the section made by the glass rather than the inserts themselves).

When cured, remove masking tape and fill the slightly opened crack and
holes from the outside.

Sand / prime / paint.

The 'reasons' for the above solution for me would be:

1) I have the materials / tools already.

2) I am familiar with the processes (and they can be applied at my own
pace).

3) I'm unlikely to make matters worse (or burn myself) and no
distortion etc. The tapered holes should form resin 'rivets', even if
the fiberglass doesn't adhere to the plastic (it may be considered
overkill but it's easy and quick to apply).

4) It could potentially be stronger than anything else I could do?

So, weld or glass, weld or glass ..?

All the best ..

T i m

 

Ah, but then I guess that's where the creative element can kick in
Beav. Should I fill the hole or leave it and find a sticker? ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

 

<snip>

Christ almighty, you do make life difficult for yourself.

Just clean off 5 to 10mm each side of the crack front and back and weld
the fucking thing. There's a Thunderace floating backwards and forwards
between Germany and Wiltsire with 28" of welding in one panel alone
that I did about 4 years ago, it's never cracked yet - not to mention
the whole new piece of top fairing I fabricated and welded in by the
mirror mounting. Then there's the ZX9R I welded the left lower panel on
that lasted at least a year after it left my hands.

Stop faffing about and just weld the thing then leave it be.

 

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:37:28 GMT, "Beav"

Ah, and now I've seen that in action it makes much more sense. I was
thinking it was more like the metal brazing / silver soldering type of
welding where you apply heat, get a molten pool then apply filler rod
into that, whereas it's more like a packing tape dispenser. ;-)

Understood and where a bit of experience / practice would come in. The
only issue with the (this) welding solution is I guess it's easier to
apply efficiently (especially for a n00b) on a nice flat open surface
than in and amongst lugs, brackets and nasty tight contours?

So is that the resin you get with those little 'David's' fiberglass
repair kits you get from Car Spares places?

Scrim [1]? I think I gave the remains of a roll to my builder
brother_in_law (so should be able to get a bit back) ;-)

Hey, and is that as strong as the woven mat Beav (for it's thickness I
mean)? As you say, that would be very manageable and give a very fine
finish?

More good ideas thanks. ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

[1] I think I remember that it doesn't tear itself but tears off one
sheet or the other when pulling down stud walls etc?

 

LOL. It may seem that way to you but for me it's (welding plastic) is
a journey into the unknown!

*Your* hands Lozzo, but you forget you are the master of such things
and if it were that easy we would all be doing it eh!

Ok, if I go that way and it ends in a molten heap, expect it through
your letter box in kit form! ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. I can't see any mention of the plastic type on these panels so I
would also have to cut some off to form some rod (or how likely it
would be ABS)?

 

TBH it is most popular, and came as standard in my kit.

Nice to know for sure.

Normally, metal would actually be stronger on the weld (if the weld was
a goodun), and weaker on the HAZ (heat affected zone). On plastic, I
cannot think there would be no changes of properties, but IME welding
plastic leads to a stronger panel.

Here's the thing,
1: do all of the above and take 2 weeks holiday, or
2: take the plunge and buy one or borrow one, and learn how to, saving
time in the future, and impressing your mates by fixing their prangs.

It took my apprentice around 1/2 an hour to learn it, and go on to weld
about 1m of plastic, saving ?300 on two replacements.
--

 

Or trawl through the interwebby world and find a product called "MEK"
(Methyl Ethyl Ketone) or however the **** one spells it.

This is good for ABS plastic joining. Clamp both parts together and wick in
a little MEK. It melts the two parts together.

Back it up with a little glass cloth and resin, then bolt it back on the
bike.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

Fucking gaffer tape innit?


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

Like what holds the air-tube to the vent onto the cooker filter outlet
you mean[1]?

Gaffer tape rocks.

Phil.

[1] When we took the old & non-working one off Cheryl said "do we need
to keep this bit?" while holding up a plastic ring from the end of the
corrugated hose that goes to the vent in the wall.. "No" says I - so it
went in the recycling skip with the rest of the defunct filter. When
fitting the new filter what do I discover? That the outflow needs a
plastic ring to wed it to the hose..
Probelm was solved with lots of gaffer tape.

 

A fucking big one, it rocks. Gaffer tape and cable ties should be in every
garage. In fact they should be in every *room*.

In't it always the bloody case?

Quite.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19