@news.eternal-september.org: [QUOTE] I used to do Pathans, heated liners (Giali, the only ones that have / had elements on the *back*) and heated grips. And I *still* go cold hands. While I understand the theory of keeping the core temp up: Hein Gericke Cruise goretex (IIRC), thermal liners, thermal undies, heated Giali inner jacket all at full tilt..... Some of us are just nesh. [/QUOTE] eat Ready Brek