WTB: CBR/ZX6R or similar

What? You're admitting that your Generation-X invincibility and overall
magnificence isn't enough to give you superiority without quicker,
better-handling bikes?

Such candour is remarkable, even if accidental.

 

So, it seems that you're saying that a ride-day punter needs to modify the
latest & greatest sportsbikes to get improvements all the way through its
performance range.

Why wouldn't the factory do it, and gain a massive jump on its rivals?

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:03:31 +1100

Presumably because the changes the punters make to exhausts and
carbs/injection are illegal, so the factories can't make them.

The changes they make to suspension are to suit them rather than the
test riders.

The changes they make to brakes are cos they are wankers...

Zebee

 

Ah. It all becomes clear.

 

Dammit: I should've said High-Performance or Whiz-Bang or something....
**** I hate pedantic week....

 

Yeah but I read yours as a reply to "not Harley" and Conehead's as "not
more powerful"....

****; you two just play among yourselves while I go and have a lie
down......
--
Clem
(How can I even concentrate when Michelle's got "The Hours" playing on the
TV?!!? She tricked me; when she said "the kid's out of the house and I've
got out a DVD about Lezzos ....." I really thought I was in for a good
night!!)

 

Of course the other side of the argument is that they could well do a much
slower time on a lesser bike.

You seem to focus on engine performance over the handling qualities.

Surely an "average" rider will be able to ride "better" and circulate
quicker on the track using a bike that handles better.

 

I think you're drawing two disparate lines of thought together and
trying to call them a whole.

I think we can state on an empirically testable basis that an '05 600
Supersport is a more capable machine than a '95 600 and certainly an '85
600 or 1000. This covers both raw numbers and the laptimes that even D
graders can do a modern bike, compared to what they could extract out of
even open class machinery 20 years ago. We know that, now as per point 1
above does this show through in the "feel" of the bike ? Of course it
does, to take the most basic components, the things are bloody light !
If you can't notice that there's something seriously wrong. The amount
and delivery of power is markedly different. Lastly modern suspension is
a street ahead of the 80s even on the entry level models, and the
600SS' usually get fairly decent suspenders

However your 2nd point is a non-sequitor, it's a statement that I'll
wholly agree with - there are an awful lot of people wobbling about on
sports bikes with low competence levels, in my experience they're more
likely to be on a litre bike than a 600 though. Don't see how it matters
though, given the original argument was that "Jap 4s havent changed
since the late 70's and they're as boring as batshit" (see below).

I can actually see both sides to some extent (I'll take interesting over
bland any day) but it's a bit tough calling a bike boring when you have
never (afaict) ridden anything remotely like it.

Knob, from my perspective having ridden many of the 80's UJMs and sports
bikes of the era, and even owned a few, there was nothing made in the
80's that even remotely resembles a modern 600. I can certainly accept
if you ride one and say you don't like it, but I can say with reasonably
surety from the list of things modern you've said you've ridden you've
not ridden anything similar (although an SV is actually far closer than
you probably think).

IK, to translate what I think Knob is really saying, it's too easy for
poorly skilled people to ride a modern 600 reasonably fast, there's
absolutely no challenge, he actually likes shitty handling and low HP
because then there's a challenge to making it go quickly (and if he

<shrug> No argument - people take one of two tacks when they're
inexperienced or under skilled, they either recognise it's them and try
and improve their skill, or the blame the tool and go buy a better one
which compensates for their inadequacies more.

paste original knobdoodle posting from 17/02/05 at 8.56pm

JL

 

Yeah OK, but a 4 cylinder can actually sound good, the Bandit with the
94db (ie not over loud) aftermarket pipe, sounds rather pleasant when
you give it a fistful through a cutting. They don't HAVE to sound like
sewing machines. Hell, have you heard what a Harley sounds like when it
leaves the factory in ADR kit ? Whiffle whiffle whiffle.....

Don't you seduce me into dreams of exotica I could never afford you mean
horrible man <grin>.

Hell a 4 stroke V8 1000 still gives me a horn - I just can't justify the
money Mr Drysdale (quite reasonably) wants for his bikes.

Ahhh yes, fair enough, well a modern 600 is the same config but bigger,
you can probably fit on there.

Early 90's GSXR750 and etc were razor sharp compared to the bikes 10
years older, hell I'm sure you remember soggy chassis' as well as I do -
be surprised if they don't give you nightmares. But yeah, the modern
bikes (and hell the most recent I rode was an 03, I've not ridden the
very latest), are indeed lightyears ahead of early 90's stuff, and you
really can tell.

Who said that ?

Sure, not to mention land yachts from both Honda and BMW, and slow, no
ground clearance cruisers. People ride for different reasons and they
enjoy different things. Some people don't mind being overtaken by
Taragos on the Great Ocean Rd...

There's 4's and there's 4's, same as there's twins and twins - you
aren't going to argue that the feel between a BMW boxer, a Ducati 999, a
Hogly, a TRX and a GPX are remotely similar or comparable are you ?

Similarly beam framed isn't the same. In fact that's even more so than
the above example. The single biggest area of advance in the last 10
years is in the chassis' in the late 80's early 90's beam frame meant
"as stiff as possible" they've come a long way since then.

Nobody is trying to convince you to own a 600. Just to stop making
statements that make no sense to anyone who's ridden one, based on a
complete absence of experience with the genre

<diplomatically makes no comments about physical proportions, stares of
into space whistling >

Maybe but I never buy any of the above except the soft drink, and to be
honest mate you'd have viewed more marketing info in the last 2 years
than I would. I'd be lucky to average an 1hr in front of a TV a week.
About the only mags I still read are AMCN and 2 wheels.

My point was that there's heaps of different bikes out there with
totally different feels, you can't just say "one category sucks", they
all have their place. If I didn't have the exact opposite ergonomics
issue to you, I'd love to take a GS for a run, doubt I'd ever buy one as
I don't do the sort of riding it excels at.

And yet you've regaled us with tales of your exploits on various little
sporty 2 strokes in the 70's...

JL

 

OH ! OK, we're in complete agreement then.

JL
(colour me puzzled)

 

They do exist, there's two reasons why most are HD - one there's a self
perpetuating circle where all the shows are HD(or derivative) only, so
people don't build show bikes that aren't. And the majority of people
who build cruisers from scratch with hot engines aren't really chasing
the same peformance parameters, they're usually thinking drag bikes.

FWIW, given there are at least 5 factory cruisers I can think of within
touching distance of 120Hp I don't think this argument is flying too
well (Rocket 3, VN2000, VTX1800, Yam Warrior, HD VRod)

JL

 

<chuckle> Sure sure, what you really meant was, I only ride the KR1
because I haven't been willing to sell it to you yet !

JL
(still haven't worked out what I'm going to do with it when I go o/s -
don't really want to sell it but don't know anyone I trust to babysit it
who would actually ride it)

 

<mumble grumble spit curse> BASTARD !

JL
(<grin> well fielded, I have no come back)

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sun, 20 Feb 2005 07:54:03 +1100

I think there may be a mismatch in what "boring" is.

I agree that there's no way a modern UJM and an 80s UJM are alike, even
in the way they are boring

I suspect what Doodle's on about is that his "boring" may well *include*
yours and IK's "interesting".

And his "interesting" probably includes IK's "rubbish"....

That's *my* excuse, how dare he steal it!

A very very light competent machine does the work for you, more or less.
You go very fast, but you have to in order to feel that you are riding.
The sensation of speed and power and the competence of it all is
amazing, but to me it's not something I want to keep doing.

I think for me, and probably Mr Doodle, the speed and smoothness and
sheer competence of the things lacks interest. Hence "boring".

I think it's wrong to cast nasturtiums at the tech, ain't no doubt that
bikes have improved out of sight. And that floats IK's boat, while it
sinks mine.

I'll just sit here and be smug that I can have heaps of fun on a cheap
old wreck of an overweight underpowered underbraked bit of Eurotrash,
as well as on a modern rocket.

I am just overweight and underpowered myself, so like prefers to consort
with like.

Zebee
- who learned last night, via Phil, that some weird bastard is willing
to offer 10 grand for the Devil. Some people have too much money, *I*
wouldn't pay that for it. Wouldn't take that for it either mind...
Clearly people who are into underpowered underbraked (can't really call
the Devil overweight) elderly Eurotrash are loony.

 

Possibly, however I'm actually having trouble coming up with more than
half a dozen bikes I'd consider boring when used appropriately (ie a
dirt bike that is flat chat at 110 is bloody boring on a straight
highway, but in the dirt...)

I can't see how you can categorise a whole genre as boring. But hey, if
you've ridden it and don't like it, that's cool with me.

Yup, and I reckon I could have fun in the same way - everything has its
good points.

Now that I can't argue with !

JL

 

No the original statement was
"Faark; the Japs have been making 4cyl UMs for 35 years and while they were
probably exciting in 1970 most of us are well-and truly over them in 2005!
Shit; even the ubiquitous liquid-cooled, multivalve, alloy-beam-framed,
full-fairinged sportsbike is 20-odd years old and they've long since run
out of "differnet" ways to paint them.."

I didn't say they hadn't changed just (later) that the format was stale and
uninteresting.
~

Wow; you give me credit for being a much deeper thinker than I actually am
John.
I think the gist of what I was actually saying is that ALL current bikes
are so amazingly good that you (or, more specifically, I) would be better
off picking one with an interesting engine (that still makes as much HP as
a Z1 or mach iv) instead of a refined super-smooth, characterless,
Britney-Spears-song dull 4cyl, (because you're never gonna USE the
difference outside of a Supersport race).

(ooh shit: I see you've pasted it in below already)

 

Yeah but I've heard that sound on 90% of bikes I've seen (and 40% of the
bikes I've owned) for 35 years.
Loud, soft, on-throttle or overrun, 4, 2 or 1 pipe; I'M OVER IT!!
~

IK. That response was to a post of his.
~

No but I reckon CBR600, GSX600, ZX6R and R6 engines are gonna feel so
similar I couldn't pick them apart without reading the names.
~

The statement (you misquoted) was that the format is old hat and I think
they're boring as batshit.
You're reading something I'm not saying if that's not making any sense to
you!
~

Well ya' see; I don't do the kind of riding it excels at either, and I
don't want to! I just want a bike that I can ride everywhere I want to go
and that gives me all the lovely sensory feedback I'm addicted to.
If I can't excel on a dunger emu-chaser how in blue-blithering-**** could I
ever get remotely close to the type of riding a cutting-edge supersport UJM
excels at?
The bikes are so totally outside my requirements that they're just
irrelevant to me.
Scale it back by 50% and put an interesting engine into it (and umm... a
shaft drive) and you'll have me lining up for a ride though!

I don't want to be the fastest guy on the track, but I was happy being the
fastest XJ900 on the track (even though I got overtaken by an RGV250 and a
650 chook-chaser) and I was happy being fastest Triumph triple on the track
(for 3/4 of a lap).
If I can embarrass some tool who's wobbling around on a totally
inappropriate supersports bike then that's aven added to my fun but can you
imagine how dumb I'd feel if I was that tool?!!?

Last weekend I had a fantastic 100km long "race" (gentlemen's rules) with
Ray Peak though the forests south of Grafton. I was touching down my pegs
and redlining between changes and even hanging off a bit through corners
(watch out for vertigo).
Now if I'd had something sharper than my BeeEm I would've either been just
tootling along on half-throttle or I could've left him for dead and ridden
on alone..... Wow: wouldn't that have been fun?......
Clem

 

Yeah but there's people who want hi-po cruisers and there's people who want
Harleys.
Well we'll wait and see but after years of the Japs building DOHC, EFI,
Liquid-Cooled, Hi-performance versions of Harleys and then finally
realising that the punters just want big simple twins for Harley to
suddnely say their future lies in DOHC, Liquid-Cooled etc seems a big
mistake. (And I've still only ever seen two on the road so far... for a
three(?) year old model!)
Clem

 

Whoops I missed this paragraph (and I can't find it in the posts
cronologically prior on my newsreader) so I'll have to reply here.
This is probably very accurate John.
The only thing I'd add is that I've been down the road a few times and I
know what the result of someone exceeding their safety parameters can look
like so I'd like to keep all that "will-I-make-it" on-the-edge
adreneline/red-mist stuff happening down at a speed that I've got a chance
of arresting or surviving an upset at.
I'd have a ball thrashing a CBR250RR up Mt Tamborine but put me on a
CBR1000RR and I'd just cruise up there complaining about how much my arse
hurt and my legs had gone to sleep because I'd be too scared/sensible/'old"
to use any of the bike's potential....

Clem

 

Remember; it was "boring" in comparison to an SV650 (with the admission
that I could never dream of using one "appropriately).
Clem