WTB: CBR/ZX6R or similar

That's the difference, though. I don't have a "rubbish".

Not true.

Completely not true... and I have to wonder what mindset such statements
can come from other than "I can't be bothered finding out, so I'll just
go with the pub wisdom".

 

Yeah but 4cyl airbox growl sounds like shit after you've experienced 3cyl
airbox growl!!
~

~
Imagine how good it'd be if he was on the 'Guzzi!
Clem

 

Geoff will be bringing the guzzi
Why bring a boring as batshit il4 when a fun and horn sounding twin will
always leave a better impression?

 

This at a time when even Hondas come with airbox growl fitted stock...
Jebus wept, copiously.

We need to get Geoff to fit a loud pipe and pods to the ZRX between now
and the Supers... I'll bring the rope.

 

Reckon, based on what?

I have to ask, because the four sure as hell look quite different from
one another and, regardless of how much riding in 70's-vintage helmets
might have caused one to become afflicted with tinnitus, they even sound
different enough to be distinct.

It's no different with their engines. The GSX-R is a top-end screamer,
the R6 has lightswitch throttle response, the ZX6 feels the most
elastic, while the CBR is the most linear. Mix in the varying levels of
intake noise, the different profile of vibes (the ZX6 vibes through the
tank, the GSX-R through the tank, seat and pegs, the R6 vibes
everywhere, the CBR through the pegs), plus the different combinations
of riding position and amount of bike under and around you and there's
no way in hell they're interchangeable.

Heh... takes me back to Australia Day, 2000. Bunch of people started out
from Loftus Oval to do a Mac Pas run. By the time we got there, there
were three people left; me on the ZXR250, another n00b on a Balius and
James Proctor (was he ever on here) on an R1100RT. Since us n00bs didn't
know the way home, James led on the RT.

The overriding memory I have of that ride is trying to climb headfirst
into the tank on the highway and throwing myself off the side of the ZXR
and giggling at what was then still a novelty of seeing the forks work
out of the corner of my eye, all while the BMW rider up ahead just sat
bolt upright and tugged on the tiller as required, regardless of whether
the upcoming turn was the Never-Ending Onramp at Narellan or a 25-signed
turn under a railway line.

Sportsbikes are, actually,_significantly_harder work when the pace hots
up than more relaxed stuff. They're so much more... "precarious" is the
word I'm looking for. Lock a wheel or ground a peg on something upright,
heavy and underpowered, and it's no big deal. Do it on a sportsbike, and
the feedback from the bike makes it feel like a near-death experience.

Paradoxically enough, it's the sportsbikes you don't have to thrash, in
terms of both where you are within the bike's own performance envelope
and where you are relative to the speed limit and the speed advisories,
to get your money's worth.

 

Heh heh; "snap"!
--
Knob

 

Based on how I can't SEE any difference when I occasionally look at them
and how I can't HEAR any difference when I'm surrounded by them.
They smell the same so I've only got touch and taste left to pick a
difference and I'm putting any money on it!
~

As do Nike and Adidas to you too I s'pose... They sure don't to me!
~

Yeah that's the kind of stuff them roadtests used to say too (before I
stopped reading them).
To me they're all just super-smooth super-powerful whizzers and I can't
give a crap whether one whizzes 5% more then another... (Do YOU care
whether a Fat Boy has more chrome finning than a Dyna Glide?)
Anyway; I'm sure the UJM order will all change again next model or the
model after....
~

~
I'm sorry but I don't believe either of these paragraphs and if you'd said
that to me at the pub I'd probably have just shaken my head and moved to a
different table by now. (And never thought about it again except
occasionally in one of those "you won't believe what this kid tried to tell
me......." sessions around a campfire.)
Clem

 

Yeah forgot about the VMax - I think it's still on sale, could have
sworn I saw an ad for an anniversary edition (or maybe that was US only)

JL

 

Shit mate, I pasted the full quote at the bottom of that email, you
didn't have to paste it in again !

Mmm, OK, interesting intrepretation of what you wrote. OK, accepted as
what you meant, but still, when you define that loosely then what's the
difference between a sprung hub 50's Trumpy and that thing you're riding
- they're both twins right ?

False modesty Clem.

I understand what you're saying, but they're not characterless, anymore
than a 2stroke 250 is characterless, they have a different type of
character. One which, I'll concede, has a tendency to say "stop being
such a pussy, we can rip through this 25Km/hr corner at least 40K faster
than this" but they have do have something to say, it's just a different
conversation to what a GS or a sports tourer has to say. AFAICT the GS
and it's ilk tends to have a "wot me worry" attitude to life, whereas
the 600s are more like that "Speed racer" cartoon from the 70s if you
remember it.

BTW the SV650 is a helluva lot more closely related to a 4cylinder 4 in
terms of feel than it is to anything else (just has shitty front forks
stock). It's a twin with bugger all bottom end, revs like a 4...

OH OK, makes comment at top irrelevant but seeing as you left yours in,
I'll leave mine in
JL

 

Errm since when did a BMW boxer twin ever sound horn ? I love the sound
of a V twin and a parallel twin, but the sewing machine noise of a boxer
? Puhleese.

JL

 

That'd sting a lot more coming from someone who's put in significant
time on more than two bikes.

 

Harley have already had their near death experience and aren't keen to
recreate it. You do realise that the *average* age of a HD owner is only
just short of 50, and climbing*... they released the V Rod because they
realised their market is going to start dying off soon, literally.

Or to put it another way, less than 5% of their sales are to people
under 40, and as of the release of the VRod, almost ALL of their under
40s are now buying VRods (I forget exactly but its something like 70 or
80% of that 5%).

The sad reality is that for every Theo or Johno still riding in their
greyer years, a lot of older riders pull the pin as they start feeling
frailer and less willing to take risks. If you don't have younger people
coming in then as your baby boomer clientele gradually dies off and
retires from biking they've got a problem.

They've still got another 10 years before it'll become a real issue, but
my generation and those younger, have shown in marketing surveys to
have a fairly negative view of the HD product. You've noticed I'm sure
that most of the HD bollocking online is done by young'uns and most of
the defending by older folk ? Well, unless HD starts convincing the
young'uns they have cool bikes ( the Easy Rider / 1% ers images that
have been sucking the Baby Boomers in a la Hell's Accountants aint
working, 'cos it's not something that resonates well with the younger
generation) then they have to start competing in the Jappers turf. The
Japs ain't dumb, they were the first to release power cruisers (the VN
beef steak) and if they want to they can up the ante with no problems at
all - they're good at responding to market forces.

I'm really seriously thinking of getting a cruiser, have been for 12
months, the Bandit was bought as a two up bike, but when I consider most
of the 2 up work it does a cruiser might be better (the girlies tend to
be more likely to want to go to a coffee shop at Manly then do a 400Km
day trip). The biggest barrier is and was dollars , or more accurately
the requirement to not spend them now so I've got dollars for next year.
However if the Warrior hadn't been designed for someone 6'6 (and online
discussions have confirmed it - it's only the really big guys who are
comfortable on it) I'd already have one in the driveway about 12 months
ago. I like cruisers, I just happen to like brakes and HP to go with it...

Two of which ? There were a group of about 10 or 12 Rocket 3s on the Old
Rd / Wollombi Rd the other weekend. I've seen at least half a dozen
Warriors, half a doz VTX18's, shitloads of VRods, and only one VN2000
(which I can understand it's not a bike I'd buy, it's another giant's
bike). Same as I've seen at least 3 or 4 different MV Agustas on the Old
Rd at various times (either that or the one guy is hiring it out to all
sorts of different riders

They're expensive bikes, Sydney has loads more rich people (raw
quantity) than Brisbane for the simple reason it's what, 5 times the
pop'n size ? So rich men's toys are more common down here.

JL
*US stat but I doubt it's any different in Oz

 

This is the bit I find amusing, to me the feel of an SV650S (i guess the
naked may feel different) and a 02 GSXR6 was very similar. The SV is a
slightly less extreme riding position and has somewhat more power low
down, but they're brothers, they're very similar while not identical.
The power delivery is far more up top then it is at the bottom, you do
have to rev the thing, it handles like a sports bike and feels like a
sports bike.

JL

 

~
No but it matters as much to me as "The GSX-R is a top-end screamer, the
R6 has lightswitch throttle response..."
~

Erm; I meant the order of which is the screamer, which is the torqueier..
torqier.. HAS THE MOST GRUNT etc etc...
~

WHoop it up IK; I haven't got the foggiest idea what you're on about!
(Is it something about one being 5% whizzier than the other [although both
are 75kHz above my highest-detectable whiz-range?]
~

~
Or maybe I've just grown a little weary of the silly unquantifiable "it's
better because it's new and you're just too ignorant to admit it.." stuff
but I'm just a little too polite to call you a foolish little child who
believes everything he reads in glossy sales brochures....
Whichever you like.
Clem

 

No. Do you? Is that what it takes to make an engine "interesting"? If
so, then I imagine no Harley on earth could hold a candle to something
like an XJR1300; that's got all the finning for your behind and more...
(oddly enough, it's also a reasonably close relative of the engine in
your old XJ)

Where, in any of the above, do I_rate_them in any way, list one as
faster or slower than another? You said that you_presume_("reckon", to
be exact) that you wouldn't be able to tell them apart even if you did
ride them.

Then you turn around and, true to form, dismiss out of hand fairly
detailed descriptions of the not-insignificant, and readily perceptible
(as in, from the first twist of throttle) disparities in their power
characteristics and the nature of their normal-operation feedback.

Isn't that precisely what you asked for a few laps ago?

Remember what I, at the time, gave as my reason for not providing it?

Hate it when I'm right...

Remember that parallel I drew earlier with a religious fundamentalist
demanding he be convinced of the veracity of evolution?

"Nah, it doesn't gibe with what my gut tells me._Must_be bullshit."

That's a pretty Thermopylean[1] position for someone who takes pride in
being the only person ever to have been wrong on Usenet.

 

Fair enough, but it is a divergence from the original discussion...

Kewl, off to a race track with you then ! (And bloody PI and EC are now
dearer to go to :-(

Maybe I do. maybe I dont. How about you be explicit and explain it for
the punters ?

Smarty, I was talking about Knob.

Dunno, I think Knob agrees with the proposition as worded, and I guess
to use your format there's 'liking' and there's _liking_ . He likes it
(I guess) not for it's intrinsic shittiness, but for the fact it's much
easier to get the machine to the edge of it's capacity, which is what I
meant (and I suspect you knew full well)

Uhuh, and ditto in Sydney, but what does it really matter ?

JL

 

How come you misquoted it then John? Was that just a deliberate attempt to
devalue what I'd said?
~

Architechurally; about everything.
What's the difference between a 1985 FZR1000 and an R1 (apart from the
muffler being in a different place and the forks upside-down)
Everything else being refined slightly (and Paint)? Wow; there's a concept
that'll hold my interest!
~

But it's a NOT a different kind of character when 75% of the bikes on the
road are the same!!
It then becomes the standard boring character from which the others.. the
interesting oddities... differ from.

This was my point about RGV250s; on their own they're probably fine but
when you can't step out without tipping over them then the interest-factor
hits zero and they become boring-as-batshit.

How often have you heard a song and thought "that's interesting" only to
find every new release for the next 6 months sounds exactly the same and
now the whole lot put your teeth on edge?
Well I passed that point with UJMs about 1975!

We're all individuals....
Clem

 

To be fair, John, piss the collector box off them, and they can make
quite a respectable racket.

 

Ahh so it's not that it's an unpleasant sound, it's that you're bored
with hearing it... see now that's a different discussion..

You'd better find yourself something a bit more interesting to listen to
than that BMW twin though, they've got a pretty boring noise as well ;-P

Did he ? I can't spot that in the thread - can I have a context ? I do
recall him saying that things had moved forward since those days, don't
recall him saying they were unrideable

Mmmm, and a VTR SP1, a 999, a 996, an Aprilia Mille, and a TL1000R are
going to have awfully similar feeling engines. As are the Vtwin
cruisers. What's your point ? We accept that a particular niche has
characteristics associated with that niche, that doesn't make boring
because you can get 4 of the same type.

FWIW there is a much difference between the 4's listed as there is
between the twins I just listed above, I guarantee I could tell those 4
twins apart in a blind test,and I'm sure I could tell the 4s apart.

So what's new hat ? Retro technology older than what's "old hat" ? And
for what it's worth, I'll say again, the beam frames of today have about
as much in common with the late 80's as that list of twins have in
common with each other.

You're so full of shit Clembo !

GS' are designed for all roads use, which is exactly what you do with it
- it's meant to be an allrounder; city, highway, backroads, dirt roads,
go pretty near anywhere. Anyone who buys one as a serious dirt bike is
kidding themselves. It's an all-roader, and you've posted enough on here
for me to confidently say that's exactly what you do with it. Having
ridden with you (and your comments about dicing with Ray Peak earlier)
indicate you are taking the thing to the edge of it's capability so
exactly what's your point ?

Kewl, nobody ever said you had to buy one, but don't put shit on
something you haven't ridden with criticisms that don't make sense...

<Shrug> and scale a GS down 3/4's and add 25HP and I'd love one..

This isn't about what is the perfect bike for Clem (or John), it's about
whether it's reasonable to say that the changes in the last 25 years in
4 cylinder engines and beam frames have an inconsequential impact on
the feel of a bike (your orginal assertion). Which is patently rubbish.

Ahh so you wouldn't want to own one for fear of being embarrassed at
being the slowest guy on a sports bike, come on man, firstly that's
unlikely (if you can punt that horrible XJ that quickly you'd be quick
on a 600) and secondly, why do you really care, I thought this was all
about having fun. It's what you've been saying up to now.

C'mon, you're more of a grown up than that (even when the hoonish red
mist settles in), if you were on a better bike you'd have been further
away from the maximum capability of the bike and hence more able to cope
if something unexpected happened. Or you could have been having fun
despite not being at the limits of the bike (it can happen..)

Contradicts your earlier post about being worried about the effects of
crossing that line and wadding it though doesn't it ? More capability
equals more in reserve, never having to ride at 10 tenths to keep up...

Which still misses the point, I could never see you on a 600, but that
doesn't mean you should diss them from no knowledge

JL

 

Yeah fair enough; I hadn't thought of that.
I was thinking "but Harley buyers don't want a V-rod..." whereas they're
not trying to sell them to "Harley buyers" ('coz they're already buying
Harleys!), they're trying to sell them to the people who'd normally walk
straight past the Harley stand and go ogle the R1s instead.

Hey um... err.. y'know I was only trolling.......

~
V-Rods. I've already seen half-a-dozen or-so Rocket 3s.
(I dunno how many of the 1600/1700/2000cc Jappy-Davidsons I've seen
because, dare I say it, they all look and sound the same to me!)
Clem